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Source: CNBC
DATES & TIMES: Saturday July 26, at 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. ET Sunday, July 27, at 1 a.m. & 7 p.m. ET NETWORK: CNBC PROGRAM: "Tim Russert"
TIM RUSSERT: Good evening, welcome again. Tonight we talk to one of America's most outspoken conservative commentators. He's tackled issues like gay marriage, affirmative action, cultural variables, and more.
Three months ago, articles like this appeared, suggesting that he was a gambler. And tonight, for the first time, Bill Bennett joins us to talk about how he dealt with those revelations, and how his family did, as well. Bill Bennett, welcome.
BILL BENNETT: Thank you. Nice to be back.
TIM RUSSERT: How did you become a big time gambler?
BILL BENNETT: Well, I have-- (CLEARS THROAT) I gambled pretty much all my life-- in school-- through college, poker games. I was in a fairly well known poker game in the city involving some judges and-- lawyers. And-- (CLEARS THROAT) I've enjoyed it.
And-- when I got out of government-- I had a lot of (CLEARS THROAT) speeches in Las Vegas. That's a big-- convention center. When you're in Vegas, that's what you do, at least that's what I do-- what I did, I should say, in the past tense.
So I played, and-- started to play more, and made more money, and played larger sums. I-- played too much, clearly. But for about nine or ten years, I-- visited Las Vegas or Atlantic City anywhere between six and ten times. About eight-- averaged about eight times a year.
TIM RUSSERT: Did you lose a lot of money?
BILL BENNETT: I lost money. Overall, you lose money. And that's a-- important lesson, I think-- you can draw a lesson here. You will lose at the end of the day. They say it's not hard to-- win, it's hard to leave winning. And that's true, the house-- the house will get you. I didn't lose what's been reported in the papers.
TIM RUSSERT: $8 million.
BILL BENNETT: No, of course not. Certainly not.
TIM RUSSERT: But significant sums.
BILL BENNETT: I-- I lost-- I lost enough money to-- to make a difference-- in terms of-- you know,-- (CLEARS THROAT) counting up has made a difference in our lives. But-- I'd-- I certainly know what I lost.
I-- I don't really think-- the amounts are anybody's business but-- the family's and the I.R.S.. But, yeah, I lost. And-- over eight or ten years, you will lose.
TIM RUSSERT: You paid taxes on all your winnings.
BILL BENNETT: I reported everything-- every comp-- every win. And-- yes, reported-- reported everything. And in fact, was pretty public about it, Tim. This was not something I was hiding.
Was a story in Time Magazine a few years ago about the fact that I was gambling and won a jackpot. There was a story in the Washington Post couple years after that. I didn't wear a disguise. You know, in-- in my church-- our church, Catholic Church, gambling is not a sin, it's not a capital sin.
But-- I way overdid it. I gambled too much. And I think I gambled too much given who I am and what I do. So I think it was just best to-- to call it quits on that.
As-- somebody who does what I do shouldn't be gambling at that kinda level. I was-- it was-- it was a-- was a high level, was a lot of money. Maybe not-- too much, given what I made, but too much given who I am and what I do.
TIM RUSSERT: Dr.-- James Dobson, The Focus on the Family, said you may have a gambling addiction. Do you think so?
BILL BENNETT: No, I don't have an addiction. (CLEARS THROAT) My wife-- had an interview with a-- newspaper. They asked her that. And she said, "No, he doesn't." I'm-- Jim Dobson's good friend, but Elaine knows me better than-- Jim-- Jim Dobson does.
I did it cuz I enjoyed it. And-- you know-- (CLEARS THROAT) a friend of mine joked, he said, "I don't know a stimulus that you've encountered that you didn't like," you know? I like to-- I like to eat. I like to-- smoke. I gave up smoking when I was drug czar. I'm just one of these-- (CLEARS THROAT) people who likes that sort of thing.
Now you gotta decide where your limits are, and what you can handle and what you can't, and what's good for you and what's not. And-- in this situation, given the kinds of issues I talk about in public life, some of the most sensitive controversial issues, which we'll be talking about-- why give my critics a chance to say, "Well, he can't talk about that. After all, he's a-- he's a gambler."
Now, you know, again, in my church, theologically, they don't regard gambling-- they don't regard gambling, I don't, as-- as wrong in itself. But when you do too much of something, as I was doing at that-- at that high level amount, then you should stop.
TIM RUSSERT: Do you think of the good you could have done with that money, rather than throw it away gambling?
BILL BENNETT: Well, I think I did a lot of good with a lot of the money, actually. I mean yeah, there's question stewardship, sure. (CLEARS THROAT) And it wasn't a good use of money or time.
But-- but I will say-- as-- as Elaine knows, my wife, and as others know, that when I won, and I won on a substantial number of occasions-- I gave a lot of money to charity. I gave a lot of money to a lot of good causes.
You know-- (CLEARS THROAT) there-- there were-- there were some periods of time when I was-- when I was-- playing where the-- where the winning was such that, you know, I was doing considerably better than NASDAQ. There was times when I was playing when I was cons-- doing considerably worse than NASDAQ. You know, that's the way-- that's the way it goes.
I don't think any charity suffered because of the gambling. But-- you know, it was just too much. Was too much of my time. It was too much money. And it's not a kind of example that I-- that I should be-- that I should be setting.
TIM RUSSERT: How did your-- how did your wife and two sons deal with this?
BILL BENNETT: Well, that's very interesting. The story broke in early May. I think it was May second, a Friday. I remember because it was the day before my son's birthday, Joe's third birthday on-- on May third.
And the story-- broke about my being a high stakes gambler. I was a little puzzled, again, till I read the story, because this had been out and been reported before.
In fact, in a couple of speeches, I had said-- over the last few years. People'd say, "You-- interested in running for President?" And I'd say, "Well, I'm-- I may run for President or a may enter the World Series of Poker, but not both." Then it would say that I was a pretty high stakes poker player and-- and gambler. So, again, not-- not trying to keep a secret of this.
So what was the story? Well, they got some documents-- the reporters in this story-- some stuff from casinos. By the way, there's a commercial on-- people may have seen about Las Vegas, says, "What happens here stays here." Not in my case. Some people there were, you know, trying to-- trying to do me great harm. I-
TIM RUSSERT: Is that legal for them to release that information?
BILL BENNETT: Well-- I don't think so. But-- (CLEARS THROAT) there may be occasion to look into that, whether it was--
TIM RUSSERT: Are you considering legal action?
BILL BENNETT: I'm-- considering it. You know, look-- the reporters got these documents they reported (UNINTEL). I don't particularly have an argument with them. and again, I never claimed privacy about the fact that I was gambling. I was very public about it.
But I think your financial records are-- are private. I mean-- people-- (CLEARS THROAT) gamble or people that have bank accounts, wouldn't want this stuff-- revealed.
Now what was revealed was selective. It was partial. And thus, gave this-- this misimpression about numbers. A lot of the numbers were wrong. But there it was. And once it's out, it's off and running. And then the talk shows, and everybody was--
TIM RUSSERT: And your family?
BILL BENNETT: -- getting on it. The family-- (CLEARS THROAT) this is the hard part. I mean-- you know, there-- there are people who-- mud was in the water, and they come after you. Now I'm-- I've been at this a long time. You know, I've been-- I've been in-- in-- in combat-- (CHUCKLE) political combat a long time. I can take this.
But it's very hard on the family. Especially when they start talking about your family members and so on. It was a tough weekend. I had an early morning trip on Saturday to Pennsylvania, Tim. I had two lacrosse games that day. That night Elaine and I were doing a-- charity fundraiser, a scholarship fundraiser.
And at 4:30 in the morning we got a call that my step-mother-- lady with whom I-- with whom I'm-- with whom I've been very close for 50 years, had died-- dealing with that. Anyway, it was that day, when you're sort of-- you know, you're in there.
All I can think of, for people who play sports, is bull in the ring, you know? People just pounding you, and pounding you, and pounding you. But-- but an interesting-- (CLEARS THROAT) and-- and-- and sweet thing happened that night-- at this scholarship-- fundraiser.
Elaine was introduced-- by-- the president of the school. And then she was asked to introduce me. And the crowd kinda fell silent, because we're inside the beltway, it's an echo chamber, it's all anybody'd been reading about all day was the-- the gambling. And Elaine introduces me and says-- "Now I'd like to introduce my husband, the former virtue czar of the United States (CHUCKLE) Diamond Jim-- I mean Bill Bennett." (CLEARS THROAT)
Now-- (CLEARS THROAT) she has-- we've had some tough talks. She's talked to me about this. we've talked of it in the past. (SNIFF) And she is a-- very strong and persuasive woman. But that was an embrace. That was a way of saying, "There's all this stuff, but I'm with you. I love you." And-- you know, it was-- it was-- it was a great thing. I-- I love her for lots of reasons. That's-- that's-- that's one of the-- one of the top ten.
But it's-- it's a tough thing to go through not so much for me. I-- you know, I can take a punch. I can give a punch. But it's tough for your family, because you don't like to see that. And-- and you know-- spouses often hear more of the junk than the-- than the person-- the person themself [sic].
But-- my family's strong. They're good. they're-- my boys are good on defense. They know how to play defense. And-- Elaine is a strong person. So we're fine.
TIM RUSSERT: You done gambling?
BILL BENNETT: Yeah. Well, I can't-- I can't do that. I mean I just shouldn't do that. Given, again, what I do-- as I said, my-- my-- my-- you know, my gambling days are over. Those-- those kinda-- those kinda numbers, that kinda playing, that just can't happen.
TIM RUSSERT: How do you respond to people who say, "Bennett's a hypocrite. He's out preaching morality, telling us what we can and cannot do. His index of-- (CLEARS THROAT) cultural-- indicators are-- include gambling. How can he possibly ever stand up and tell us to do anything anymore when he himself was such a gambler?"
BILL BENNETT: Well, to take-- take that at its broadest level, I mean if you say you-- you can't speak about issues or urge-- people engage in better conduct unless your conduct is perfect, there's gonna be a great silence out there. Nobody's gonna get their talk.
No, I'm not a hypocrite. I never got on the soapbox about gambling. I never said, you know, "Gambling's a terrible thing, people should stop gambling." (CLEARS THROAT) I haven't said about a lot of other areas, too. Smoking, which I used to do, eating which I-- used to do less-- more of-- doing less of.
So no, I'm not a hypocrite. Did I fall short of my standards by doing too much, by-- by engaging at this in excessive level? Yes. But-- that doesn't make my arguments any less good or not. Whether this hurts my credibility is really up to-- the people who are watching this show and other people. They will have to decide.
Look-- (CLEARS THROAT) you know, the-- one thing about my relationship with the American people is I've been honest, I've been truthful. And I'm being honest and truthful-- truthful here.
I wrote the book of virtues. And, you know, as I said a number of times, it was great thing, but it's also a bit of a burden. I was-- (CLEARS THROAT) drinking a martini and eating a steak once, and someone came in and said, "Is that virtuous?" You know? And I said, "If it's perfectly mixed and perfectly cooked, it is."
Well, you know (CLEARS THROAT) that's-- that's not what they wanted to hear. The first chapter in The Book of Virtues is self discipline. That's the one I need to work on when it comes to things I like to do, when it comes to my temper, and other things. Loyalty, courage, those virtues I don't have to work on so hard.
But the self discipline one, I do. I hope it hasn't-- affected my ability to have a conversation with the American people. I don't want it to.
But, you know-- (CLEARS THROAT) what I did was excessive, was wrong-- was a mistake. That's over. And-- gotta move on to other things.
TIM RUSSERT: And we're gonna come back and talk about a lot of those issues that you care about.
BILL BENNETT: Great.
TIM RUSSERT: Like war, affirmative action, gay rights, (MUSIC) cultural values, whole lot more. Bill Bennett, he's our guest for the full hour.
TIM RUSSERT: (MUSIC) And we are back. During the break we were talking more about this issue of hypocrisy Bill Bennett. You have something else to say.
BILL BENNETT: Well, you know, a friend of mine said to me you've got two choices here. If you've decided what you were doing was successive, you know, way over doing the gambling thing you can either adjust your behavior or adjust your standards. You can-- you can just say well, you know, never mind, I don't have that standard anymore. There's-- Lerosh Vicall (PH) says that hypocrisy is the tribute advice pays to virtue.
One way never to be charged with hypocrisy is to have no standards at all, because then you can't fall short of them. You can't be untrue to your standards, you know, if you don't have any. So you just say, well, let it all hang out, let anybody do what they want in government or out of government, and then you can't be charged with hypocrisy. I don't want-- I don't want that kind of world. I'm not going to adjust my standards, I'll adjust my behavior. I will change my behavior.
And again did I fall short? Yeah. Did I-- what I-- what I do was wrong given who I am and how I live, yes. Yes, it was. And they'll be-- and that's-- that part of my life is over. But the other aspect of this is I noticed in some of the-- some of the charges and some of the stuff that came out there was an actual expression, public expression by people that they were delighted to see me getting whacked. That they were delighted with these revelations and hoped that I would be, you know, removed from public life because of it.
Shaud (PH) and Freud, you know, pleasure in other people's suffering. That's horrible, that's creepy, that's really bad. I mean, you know, that's worse than gambling. We've had some tough issues to deal with in this town that I've dealt with, the Clinton business, other business. You don't take pleasure in other people's-- in other people' suffering. Especially in the political realm.
And people who are doing something that's arguably important or hold an important job if there's something that comes to light about what they've done, which is, you know-- which is-- which is less than savory or wrong it's not something to be delighted in. So that's a perverse kind of-- kind of reaction. I'll take my responsibility for what I did and-- and be accountable.
And, you know, (CLEARING THROAT) Justice Brandai (PH) says sunlight's the best disinfectant. So we've got sunlight on this and we'll-- we'll clear this up. (CLEARING THROAT) I-- what I did I regret, I'm not ashamed of it. It's not a kind of thing I think that rises to that level. But when people say in public, you know, this is a political enemy and he's down and we're kicking him and we're delighted that's-- that's bad. That's sick. And by the way I'm not down, I'm up and I'm back, and nobody's gonna drive me out of public life.
TIM RUSSERT: But you understand why people thought that you happened tried to present yourself as this arbiter of morality and now they're saying, you see, he's just like the rest of us.
BILL BENNETT: Well, I am like the rest of it-- of us. And I've always said so. I've never held myself up that. I mean, the media has called me the moral Czar. Every time I go on Chris Matthews show he'd say here's morality Czar, I'd say, "No, I'm not. No, I'm not. You guys made me that." "Well, you write the book of virtues." And, you know, this kind of goes with the territory. So I understand that. And I understand some satisfaction on the part of critics saying, ah, now we found out about Bennett. You know, Bennett's clay feet.
Well, they've been there all along. They're-- some of the clay feet I have are harder-- are pretty hard to hide. But right, mortal and made big mistakes. And this thing is not out in the public and people can decide what they want to do about it. But I'm not going to be driven out of public life by these guys. (OVERTALK)
TIM RUSSERT: Jay Leno-- Jay Leno, David Letterman, even Dick Chaney used-- joked about you as a punch line.
BILL BENNETT: Well, I thought-- I thought the Chaney thing was kind of an embrace. And I thought Len-- some of Leno's lines were very funny. He said, "Who does Bill Bennett think he is, gambling his own money. Doesn't he know how Washington works." I mean, but that's-- you know, that's part of life. And I can live with that.
Again I think that-- the story that a lot of people realize is how much harder it is on the family. Now, you know, my boys are fighters, they're warriors, you know, they're athletes. And they're ready to, you know, go to war on this. But still it hurts. Because-- it's a public life and when you're in it, you know, every-- everything you do is subject to this kind of censor and this kind of disapproval. But that's the life I chose. And so I-- you know, I'll take my punches.
TIM RUSSERT: No more casinos.
BILL BENNETT: No more casinos. I'd like to be able to go to a fight. And some of these fights are in casinos. But you won't see-- you won't see Diamond Jim, you don't see these big bucks throwing around.
TIM RUSSERT: We'll be right back. More of our conversation with Bill Bennett on a whole lot of issues. The war in Iraq, criticism of the President on intelligence, gay rights, affirmative action. Right after this. (MUSIC)
And we are back. What's your take on the criticism of the President, his admission that he should not have included words in the State of the Union message regarding American intelligence and Uranium from African to Iraq?
BILL BENNETT: I think on the merits it's overblown. And I think politically it's very dumb on the part of democrats and people who are criticizing him. I think it's overblown. I even wrote a book called "Why We Fight, Moral Clarity in the War on Terrorism." When it was released as a paperback I put another chapter in on Iraq and listed the reasons that we should do this. And didn't even mention the yellow cake.
I mean-- it didn't matter to a lot of people as a reason. So, you know, this is-- they're picking at him. And-- you know, they're getting some response, they're getting various people taking various levels of responsibility for it. Clearly you got to have your-- you know, you got to scrub your intelligence and make sure it's as reliable as can be.
And the NS-- NSC staff has to be sure it's as reliable as it can be. But-- this doesn't change the case for Iraq. And I think the overreaction from the Dems is not really-- really very smart. You know, it's three-- three-- you would remember better than I, three months before that speech both the houses of Congress gav-- passed a resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq before any mention of yellow cake or (UNINTEL).
TIM RUSSERT: But those resolutions did include the whole notion of a threat from Saddam from biological, chemical and nuclear.
BILL BENNETT: Yes. Partly, but it was also partly in the sense-- in the future tense that he could develop, would develop, was in the process of developing. Remember, a lot of the argument was we don't want to get to the stage with this guy where North Korea is, we want to stop him before he gets to that stage.
He had already indicated his malign intent. You know, the kind of-- the kind of regime he was running. I mean, are we to expect that once the inspectors were thrown out, was it '98, that Saddam then said now let's unilaterally disarm. I mean, I think we'll still find these weapons of mass destruction.
But for me frankly, Tim, all along I thought there was sufficient justification to go into Iraq based on what we knew he was doing to his own people. You know, this is a guy who was rewarding, you know, the suicide bombers. Again, another check writer for that. That's-- that's a side issue I suppose here. But was torturing and slaughtering his own people. And as in the Liberia situation now, to me that's sufficient grounds for involvement. And there was a whole lot more than that.
TIM RUSSERT: You would go into Liberia with American troops?
BILL BENNETT: Yes, I would. I would-- (CLEARING THROAT) It's not that I, you know, always agree with this administration on things either. My view of foreign policy's a little different. I think that we are called on in fact as-- because of who we are to be the country that can make the difference. I would have been in Rwanda too. Because I think we could have avoided that mass slaughter. I think that's what a great and strong and good country does. And I wouldn't be trading with China by the way just to point out a difference.
TIM RUSSERT: At all?
BILL BENNETT: Right, at all. I think at all. I certainly wouldn't be doing, you know, permanent normal trade relations and most favored nation and things like that. Because I think it's a horrible totalitarian state. And I don't think it gets better as we get closer to it. I think it gets-- gets worse. I'm not sure there that we're proving that we can exercise positive leverage on China and North Korea.
It's just a different view of foreign policy. But I was all for the Iraq situation. And I think events have worn out the wisdom of it. You know, we are now empting out these killing fields and not filling them as he did. When I read that testimony by that British member, left wing member of Parliament, who went over there and talked about people being put through shredders, you know, you've got to do something.
And, you know, does he support terrorism? Of course he supports terrorism. He supports terrorism against Israel, Abu-Nadal (PH) we know was there. Many other terrorists were there. He's a terrorist, he invaded two other countries. Tried to assassinate the President of the United States. We got a good case.
TIM RUSSERT: But North Korea, the oppression of those people is just extraordinary. And yet we seemed to be reluctant to do anything militarily because they have the nuclear bomb.
BILL BENNETT: Well, it's harder. A moral-- a moral justification doesn't require you to act. It gives you the grounds to act. It gives you the reason to act. Would we be morally justified in liberating the people in North Korea? Sure. Should we? Probably not given the state of our military, given the state of what they have. Given the situation in South Korea, given the 38th parallel. It's not the only factor that's involved in making a decision, but it is one factor.
Is there moral justification to, you know, remove the yoke of tyranny from people anywhere? Sure there is. But that doesn't mean that's-- that's got to immediate follow, that your action has to immediately follow.
TIM RUSSERT: How about Cuba?
BILL BENNETT: Same thing. But-- and-- and yeah, I mean, I wouldn't have a problem there. But if I'm sitting in the defense department now, or sitting in a council with the President of the United States, Tim, I've got to think about this military and how many places we can be. The main task here remains the defense of the United States.
And again look at the situation in Iraq and how things have changed. You know, this country is on offense now. We have not had another attack since 9/11. We have changed the way of thinking about the United States in the Middle East. Bernard Lewis was right, the professor at Princeton, who said anxious parpiciation in that part of the world is wrong, strength and firmness is right. We've shown that strength and firmness in Afghanistan and Iraq and we're in much better shape.
TIM RUSSERT: You and some others have gone to American college campuses to talk about the war. I want to come back and talk about your experience there.
BILL BENNETT: Yes sir.
TIM RUSSERT: Along with a lot of other social cultural issues. We're talking to Bill Bennett, former education secretary, drug Czar. We'll have more after this. (MUSIC)
And we are back talking to Bill Bennett. He was the nations Secretary of Education, the drug Czar. Now works for Empower America. And talks repeatedly on issues confronting our nation and our world. We're talking about the war in Iraq. I want to go back just to the intelligence issue for one second.
Many democrats feel that if someone like Bill Clinton in his State of the Union message said something that was not true about National Security Intelligence the republicans would be going wild. Joe Biden (PH) said they'd take his bark off. Do you think there's a different standard?
BILL BENNETT: They-- they might-- no, I don't-- I don't think so. They might-- they might be taking his bark off. He's a different president with a different record of-- of truth telling to be fair. Also this president has acted, which makes the stakes higher. I mean, this president has acted in a way that Bill Clinton didn't. But of course there would be-- there would be political criticism.
Question is is this-- is this wise or not and should they put it in perspective. And is it fair. Look, what I think democrats should do, I think democrats should-- should do what Blair did. I mean, I think the ideal democratic candidate would be Tony Blair. He came, went to the well of the House there and he spoke and talked about the war and how much he supported the efforts of-- of President Bush. And we know he would be different on domestic policy.
We are at war now, which is a different thing than what we were talking about during the Clinton administration. And when you're at war, let's remember 9/11, let's remember what happened on that day and-- and the threats to-- the threats to world peace and the threats to freedom. And I think that means you put this thing in context.
Would there-- would there have been criticism of Clinton? Sure. But I remember it not frankly being so very loud that attack in Somalia, wasn't it, on the medicine factory or whatever-- what-- yeah. A couple of republicans said, oh, this is a wag the dog-
TIM RUSSERT: Sudan.
BILL BENNETT: Sudan, I'm sorry. This is a wag the dog thing. And most of us said no, we should never accuse the president of that unless there's absolutely incontrovertible evidence. I remember-- I remember saying that over and over again. I was no fan of Bill Clinton's but it seems to me you give a president the benefit of the doubt when you're talking about this kind of international military situation.
TIM RUSSERT: Democrats will say however the president took us to war because it-- had to be preemptive because of the imminent threat that the United States would face from Iraq. He could have weapons of mass destruction, give 'em to a third party. And on and on and on. And therefore if-- absence the weapons of mass destruction and absent the ability for the president to say the threat was imminent then why didn't we just give inspections more time. And when the president comes forward and says we have to do something with Iran or North Korea won't people be suspect of him and our country because of the Iraq experience.
BILL BENNETT: There's always the burden of proof. And the president has too meet that burden of proof. What exactly is the democrats position now? And which democrat are we talking about? I mean, we had Gephardt who was supportive of the president and now he's not. We have Carrey and we're not quite sure where he is. Look, it's a tough job. And obviously the president and the government and the administration must be held to high standards.
But it seems to me when this thing is over, give it a few months, give it a few more months, maybe a year or two, we will see the results and then we can-- and then we can evaluate it. In terms of what's happened already by the criteria I mentioned before seems to me this has been a great thing to do. The people of Iraq are free, you know.
Instead of-- I mean, it's terrible to hear the reports everyday of a soldier dying or two soldiers dying. But 5,000 people a week were dying in Iraq before this-- before this occurred. Three thousand civilians died on September 11th, let's have a little perspective about this. Let's put things in their proper context. TIM RUSSERT: You've been going to college campuses-
BILL BENNETT: Yeah.
TIM RUSSERT: --and teach-ins with a fellow named Paul Bremmer who's now over in Iraq. Jim Woolsey, the former head of the CIA. You'll be heading to Harvard in September.
BILL BENNETT: Yes, yes.
TIM RUSSERT: What kind of reaction are you getting on college campuses to your particular views on Iraq and foreign policy?
BILL BENNETT: Very interesting. We've been to George Washington University, Columbia, UCLA, we're going to Harvard in the fall. And the standard panel was-- was Paul Bremmer and Jim-- Jim Woolsey, Charles Krauthammer's been on a panel of ours and other folks. I guess Bremmer's gonna be a little too busy to be on our panels.
It's been a very interested reaction first of all. Students come out, they want to hear the case, we make the case for war against Iraq. We make the case the war against terrorism. And they come out. A lot of disagreement. Because you will hear from these students what it is they're hearing from their professors. And so most of the questions come from the-- come from the left. But that's why we're there. That's why we're-- that's why we're-
TIM RUSSERT: Are there protests?
BILL BENNETT: Yeah, we've had big protests at Columbia. Some protests at UCLA. Yeah.
TIM RUSSERT: Are the conversations, discussions, civil?
BILL BENNETT: Most of it is civil. Yeah. Once-- I mean, campus security has sometimes had to clamp down as they did at Columbia. But they've kept-- they've kept the forum open. But this is an interesting point though for people. You know, I'm-- (CLEARING THROAT) I'm a political partisan, you know, as people know, but I like to think I tell the truth on these things.
People say what kind of people, you know, live in Washington, what are these people like. Paul Bremmer who's now in-- in Iraq and Jim Woolsey, the former CIA director under Bill Clinton, one democrat, one republican. These guys would travel to these campuses, flew out to UCLA, did the speech, flew back on the red eye. We bought 'em a $30 dinner and they, you know, went out there and did this-- we didn't give 'em any fee or any stipend. Because they care about this country, they care about these kids in college.
And, you know, there are a surprisingly large number of people like that in America and even in Washington. Sometimes people get a kind of skewed view of what people are like. But men like Bremmer and Woolsey are really exemplary men. And it's a great thing to have them. A little story, we were having dinner with Bremmer and Woolsey in L.A. Woolsey went off to the men's room and the New York Times reported that they-- that he might be the guy in charge in Iraq.
So we asked Bremmer when Woolsey was in the men's room. Said might it be Woolsey? And he said, "Woolsey is a first rate guy, and he would do a great job." That's all he said. He was the guy.
TIM RUSSERT: And he knew it.
BILL BENNETT: He had to, he had to.
TIM RUSSERT: And never gave it up.
BILL BENNETT: Yeah, it was very cool.
TIM RUSSERT: How important is it that this kind of free exchange of idea exists on our campuses, and how do we get more of it?
BILL BENNETT: Well, it's critical. And the interesting thing Tim as I mentioned is that the kids come because many of them feel on these campuses that they haven't heard this side. That is they haven't heard the case for the war against Iraq, for-- pressing this effort militarily against-- against terrorism.
You can tell what's being taught on campuses by the kinds of questions and the-- and the disposition of the questions that you-- that you get. And that's why we started American's for Victory over Terrorism, to try to be part of the free marketplace of ideas and bring this point of view to campuses. It was amazing, you know, six, 800 kids at Columbia. And that-- that's pretty impressive. That shows they are interested, they are open minded but they're not getting the whole story.
TIM RUSSERT: We're gonna take another quick break. We'll be back to talk about Supreme Court decisions on gay rights and affirmative action with Bill Bennett. Right after this. (MUSIC)
And we are back. The United States Supreme Court ruled that a Texas law against sodomy should be struck down. That sex between consenting adults of the same sex should not be illegal. Canada now says that gay couples should be married. Is gay marriage in the United States of America inevitable?
BILL BENNETT: Good question. I don't know if it's inevitable. This was quite a decision from the Supreme Court. I agreed with Justice Thomas in descent, he said, "I would not have enforced this Texas law." And this Texas law the constable came and arrested these two guys. I wouldn't arrest people for that.
But that's a different question from whether you validate and bless what it is homosexuals are doing, their sexual activity and their intimacy by calling it marriage or something like marriage. And I would be opposed to that. Is it-- is it coming? I don't know.
Conservatives right now and moderates with them are pushing for Constitutional amendment, at least many are. And that's-- that's a hard thing to get, but many feel that's the way to go. I've been wrestling with this and debating it and sending memos back and forth talking to people on the phone.
I am certainly of the view that marriage needs to be preserved as a relationship between one man and one woman. The best vehicle for this I don't know, but this is going to be a very big issue over the next few months. And it will have it's political ramifications, it's ramifications in the elections and so on.
TIM RUSSERT: Homosexual gays will say that this is biological, it's not learned behavior. That's their view. Some people might--
BILL BENNETT: Some.
TIM RUSSERT: Some would disagree with that. But this is the way we are born, and if we want to have a loving, fulfilling relationship and marry someone why can't we. There are many heterosexual couples that get married and decide not to have children, so it's not a matter of procreations, or people get married for a second time later and life and can't have children. So why should we be denied as gay Americans the same rights that other Americans have?
BILL BENNETT: Well, some-- some gays do say that, some gays say something different. Some people say it's chosen, some people say they're hardwired. Some people say something in between. Well, there are people that may be hardwired all sorts of ways and we do not nevertheless bless what it is they're hardwired for to do.
As I've said any number of times what limits do you put on this? There's a fairly big movement for polygamy in some parts of the United States. Hard to believe but people say, you know, I want to marry three or four people, should that be allowed? The Supreme Court has spoken on that and said no.
What about-- what about incest, it's a taboo in every society. Well, two sisters may love each other should we bless that with marriage? I don't think so. Just because someone's hardwired a certain way or someone says I love someone doesn't mean that you bless it with marriage. You have love among friends, you have love brother to brother. That doesn't mean it should be marriage.
Look, I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. As Margaret Thatcher said, I met with her a couple years ago and she asked me about this. She said, well, it's all rather puzzling isn't it. She said it's about a man and a woman the rest is impossible. That's what marriage is.
Almost all of our religions agree on this. It is-- it has been the practice and custom of almost all societies, and marriage is not in great shape right now in the United States and many of the western democracies. Should we take another step to weaken it? I believe that people who love each other, I believe homosexuals-- are entitled to whatever the orientation of people that love each other. And I believe homosexuals should be entitled to respect and equality. And should be left alone. Basically should be left alone.
But I don't believe that their relationship should be blessed with the title of marriage. Because marriage is about a man and a woman. Mar-- married people don't have to have families, often do not have families. But this is what it's-- this is it's about. Are we prepared to say, well, this whole business about it being important to have a mother and a father, you know, when there are children, is not important, it's trivial, it doesn't matter. It's a matter of indifference. I don't think so. I don't think we're prepared to say that.
And there are some problems in what homosexuals tell us about the life of many homosexuals. Andrew Solomon is one of the most eloquent spokesman for gay marriage in the country. And his book talks about, you know, the need for extra marital outlets because of the lifestyle of gay males. You'll need to have extra marital outlets. Well, I-- I don't think so, not in marriage, that's not allowed. That's not permitted. Is it done? Sure. But I think it's a violation of marriage.
So this is going to be a-- a tough and very emotional debate. And what will happen legislatively, Constitutionally, remains to be seen. And the opinion polls, and I'd say this to conservatives, the opinion polls show there's-- there's not overwhelming support. There's still strong support for the traditional notion of marriage but it's not overwhelming. The other thing--
TIM RUSSERT: Particularly among younger Americans.
BILL BENNETT: That's correct.
TIM RUSSERT: And-- and--
BILL BENNETT: That's correct.
TIM RUSSERT: And many gays will say, Bill Bennett, that it is not appropriate to compare homosexuality to incest or polygamy. That their life is one that is honorable and not-- not in any way should be viewed as a perversion. And two how can they being married with each other weaken heterosexual mar-- marriage?
BILL BENNETT: Well, it's-- fair enough. And-- and-- and in many cases it is not perverse. It is-- people are loyal, they're monogamous and so on. But, you know, the love for a brother and a brother or the love between two sisters doesn't have to be perverse either. But still even without sexual relations we would not-- wouldn't think such people should be married.
There's-- there's a problem of the currency Tim. There's a problem of keeping the currency of value. And, you know, you can't counterfeit your own money, in the privacy of your own home you can't make your own money. Marriage is something, we believe it means something. It has meant something for a very long time. Sure, it's been-- attempts have been made to counterfeit it, it's been devalued. It's gone from being a sacrament to a contract, to a, you know, kind of handshake in some cases. But I think therefore it needs strengthening, not weakening.
It is-- it is the meaning of words, the meaning of terms and an institution upon which so much else rests. The other thing I'd say to conservatives is, you know, for the most part here, you know, leave people alone. You know, the right-- the right to be left alone is the right most valued by civilized men. It's a-- it's a-- it's a big gap between saying you have the right to be left alone and saying I bless what it is you're doing. And that's the step I'm not prepared to take, not to bless it.
TIM RUSSERT: We're gonna take another quick break, we'll be back to talk to Bill Bennett about the affirmative action decisions of the Supreme Court right after this. (MUSIC)
And we are back. Supreme Court also tackled affirmative action. Very difficult, complicates sensitive issue. What did you think of their decision?
BILL BENNETT: I don't think-- I don't think it's complicated. I mean, I think it's difficult. But I thought the decision was terrible. Because it put off the day of reckoning. It said that you can count by race. That you can give people points for admission to college or admission to graduate school simply because of their race. Not poverty, not disadvantage, but race.
There isn't any reason for this. People say, well, if you-- if you don't do this you're not gonna have a diverse group of students. Of course you're gonna have a diverse group of students. And there's nothing Constitutionally or legally or by any standards of higher education that keeps an institution from saying, look, we're going to admit ten percent of our class, or 20 percent of our class based on these kids having overcome disadvantage, or having overcome poverty, or growing up in a poor household and needing an opportunity. That is all fine.
But when you say to somebody, which is what they're saying at Michigan, you're of this race you get 20 points. And you're of this race, you don't get any points.
TIM RUSSERT: Now that part was struck down.
BILL BENNETT: There's wrong. Well-- yeah, the undergraduate case was struck down. The law school case where they said you can take race into account but you can't just simply assign points to it just means you're-- you're doing it undercover. It's the same-- it comes to the same thing. It simply means you can weight it but you can't be so crude as to say you're weighting it by 20 percent.
TIM RUSSERT: By they do give--
BILL BENNETT: Can be a factor.
TIM RUSSERT: They do give preference to geography schools, they want to balance, nationalize the school if you will. If the kids a good athlete--
BILL BENNETT: Right.
TIM RUSSERT: --or a legacy if mom or dad went to the school.
BILL BENNETT: Right.
TIM RUSSERT: Why not have something like racial background.
BILL BENNETT: Because race-- race really has no place in American life. It had no place in American life when blacks were on the receiving end of racial discrimination, it has no place in American life when other people, mostly poor white middle class kids are on the receiving end. Like these-- like these young women who are at the University of Michigan.
We fought a civil war about this one. Martin Luther King did not say someday I have a dream, you know, that my children be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. He did not say, someday I have a dream that my children will get into law school largely because of their race or significantly because of their race.
In the-- in the opinion, it's interesting, Justice O'Conner says, well, maybe in 25 years we won't have to do this. That gives it all away doesn't it. That tells us that we know there's a little bad feeling about doing it this way. By the way as a former Secretary of Education you want to get more blacks into institutions of higher education don't-- don't do this counting by race stuff. Go to work in the first, second and third grade on reading. Sixty percent of black fourth graders in this country cannot read at a basic level. Sixty percent. Fix that problem. You--
TIM RUSSERT: What's the white percent?
BILL BENNETT: About-- oh, I think it's about 30 percent, 20 percent. Way too high. But, you know, if you're-- if you're in the third grade and you can't read at a basic level the odds are way against you. And by the way those kids aren't going to be applying to the University of Michigan or the University of Michigan Law School with very few exceptions.
Those kids but for the grace of God are lost in terms of their success in American life. So fix the problem at that end. You give kids real opportunity you give them real schools and good educational opportunities, which is what I spent a lot of my time working on these days, you won't have to do this-- this game of playing by race.
TIM RUSSERT: What's the biggest problem confronting our country?
BILL BENNETT: Oh, the biggest problem confronting our country. You know, I would have said before 9/11, I would have said the ossification of the moral tissue, you know. With the decline of family, with the advent of some of the junk on popular television, on movies. That, you know, are we using-- losing our core values. Since 9/11 I can't say that. Since seeing these kids go off to places like Iraq I can't say that.
You know, you've got-- you've got kids who grow up, many of them not going to very good schools, many of them coming out of families that aren't what they're supposed to be. Listening to lousy television, not this TV but lousy television. Bad radio. And they turn out great. They turn out to be saviors of humanity. Which is really what they are over there, these 18, 19, 20 year old kids.
You know, we've got to do better. We have to-- we have to pay more attention to the things that-- that we're committed to. We have to do much better educationally. Particularly at the elementary and secondary level. Particularly for parts of the population such as we were just-- such as we were just talking about. And remember our priorities.
But I'll tell you I have since 9/11. And I'm-- you know, I'm a student of American culture. I have reevaluated my own position on American culture. And come to the conclusion that we're not ready to go down the tubes at all. This is one great strong country. And we've produced these fabulous people.
And, you know, the nine guys who were in the-- in the Pennsylvania, in the coal mine, somebody told me they were all gonna go to an Ozzie Osborne concert. Well, Ozzie Osborne, this not my cup of tea, you know. I would think this would have some negative effect on you.
TIM RUSSERT: Well, they started death in the face, they can go anywhere they want.
BILL BENNETT: They stared death in the face, they tied themselves to each other. Go listen to whatever you want.
TIM RUSSERT: You're a father. Two sons.
BILL BENNETT: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
TIM RUSSERT: One of your sons is going off to college.
BILL BENNETT: Yes, sir.
TIM RUSSERT: How are you gonna handle that, Dad?
BILL BENNETT: Well, they won the championship before they went. So that-- that helped.
TIM RUSSERT: Lacrosse.
BILL BENNETT: Lacrosse. Yeah, they beat Landen which was a big thing. Georgetown Prep and John was the captain. Wonderful team, wonderful season. As proud as I can be of 'em. Two things, it's not as hard on me as it is on mom I think. But she's not in denial but she's-- (LAUGHS) she's spending as much time with them as she can this summer. These two have a very special close-- close relationship. We're gonna miss him, we're gonna really miss him.
It's gonna be hard. One good thing for us we have another one coming along. We have his brother Joe who's gonna be a formidable character too. So we get to go through this again in high school. But we're gonna miss-- miss the heck out of him. There's a great line in Homer, you know, the father's wish. People say, gee, you know, you ever jealous of John. I said, I'm not jealous of John. Yet for a while in the spring he was the only Bennett getting good press. You know, was-- was John. But, you know, what do you wish for for your sons? You wish that they'll be-- you know, do it better than you did.
TIM RUSSERT: There's a scene in Virgil's of Naiad when the boat's being overcome with huge waves and storm. And the captain yells out, "Someday we will even laugh about this." You think in hindsight, you put gambling behind you, you maybe be able to laugh about it, joke about, and use terms we all use about being pokerfaced or the equivalent of a royal flush or show your cards?
BILL BENNETT: Well, I hope so. I-- you know, you do it inadvertently, Tim, because it's so much a part of our language so much from-- the other day someone said is Hilary Clinton gonna run, you know. And I said, "Absolutely." I said, "Bet on it." And I said, "Whoops," you know. You bet on it, I can't bet on it, but you can bet on it. Today someone asked me about the two Hussein brothers. You know, was this a big deal. I said, you get-- you get two aces in Texas hold 'em you're all in, you won. I hope we can joke about it.
TIM RUSSERT: You have one bet left in your life.
BILL BENNETT: Yeah.
TIM RUSSERT: The Buffalo Bills and the Super Bowl.
BILL BENNETT: Yeah.
TIM RUSSERT: Bet on it.
BILL BENNETT: Yes, sir.
TIM RUSSERT: (UNINTEL) way. Bill Bennett, thanks for coming and joining us.
BILL BENNETT: Thank you, Tim.
TIM RUSSERT: We'll see you next weekend right here on CNBC. (MUSIC) |
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